I know that there was a recent post on Baan and Linux, but what I'm interested in is why our customers want Baan on Linux. I'm the product manager within Baan ERP, among others, responsible for OS flavors

What is the driving force behind people asking for Linux. Is it to reduce the cost of ownership? What flavor of Linux are people expecting, RedHat, Caldera, Suze, or waiting for United?

Do people expect the support from Linux from the hardware vendors, like IBM, new HP or even SUN? Or do they expect a one box solution, like RedHat on a IBM xSeries (zSeries) with ERP 5.0c on it as one offering.

Please provide some of your feelings.

Hi Winfried,

A couple of things of the top of my head why Linux is key and why Baan should make it a supported platform.

Cost of ownership
This is most certainly the biggest pro, in comparison with the other commercial UNIX flavours. Alot of smaller customers (SME) are forced to choose for the Wintel platform because of budget constraints. Yet I don't believe in Windows as a good platform for any type of ERP application. Sorry NT lovers, but NT is an administration nightmare. And too often the NT version of a software component is still an inferior port of the original UNIX version (ie. Oracle). So where to go else on the cheaper Intel platform? Linux.

Open-source
Some may take this a disadvantage but I'd like to see it as a strong point of Linux. Linux is a platform developed by thousands, tens of thoudands of people across the world, incorporating new features at a very fast rate. Some of the innovation may not always progress in a 'stable' way but it will get there in the end. The stronger and bigger the Linux community and server market share will become, the faster this innovation process will take place. Eventually Linux could be a frontrunner amongst all the other UNIX versions.

As to the Linux flavours: I think the major branches should be supported: RedHat, Suse, Debian. I wouldn't put all my eggs in the United basket just yet.

As to support: best thing to do would for HW and SW vendors to team up and deliver a combined solution, either fully out-of-the-box or a looser model. Support price models can steer customers in either direction.

Hi Winfried,

First of all, let me say that it's a pleasure to know that Baan (you) is reading this board and is listening to what is being said here.

Thanks.

Let me add some arguments to this thread here.

- Linux is no longer an obscure little OS, carried by a couple of freaks and geeks. It is a mature and growing OS that has numerous advantages (and disadvantages) over other systems.
As such it should be added to Baan's arsenal, if only to maintain that 'full flavor' status.
- Because of the low cost of Linux and the relative low hardware requirements that it has, it is ideal to use on test boxes, development machines and in training situations. It is perfect to set up fast and easy simulations and sandboxes without having to dig deep into the budget.
- Other than server based, Linux would make a much better client to a unix server than MSW will ever be. I think some of the discussions here were on Linux as a client, rather than a server. Of course it will be a long road to replace all desktops, but having crucial applications (Baan) available will help.

Hi Winfried,

There's no doubt that Linux is going to be a major presence in the future. In fact its already a major presence now within the new upcoming technologies. Baanboard runs on Linux, so does Google and many other websites, and even PDA's are now using Linux. The opportunities are just so much more.

Two factors are certain for the future: Internet Technologies and Cost Reduction. Linux is right in the middle providing both these factors, and doing it well.

As for Baan, the bottom line is that more licences will be sold. There are markets around not broken into yet that can be exploited if Baan get the software and cost right.

Hi Winfried,

as it was already said above: It's very good to know some of you Baan people are reading this board. Probably that's the nearest way to your customers and the consultants that implement your product that you can find.

From my perspective working mostly for SMEs I can add one point of view: In small companies there are commonly two or three people in the IT department: One for the Hardware and MS Products, one for CAD, and one for Baan and all the rest. The BaaN Server maintenance (Hardware, Operating system and Database) is usually sourced out, if it's UNIX-based, because none of those guys dares to deal with that (vendor-proprietary, very specific, hardly documented, never-before-seen) environment. I have a customer where anew 40 GB hard disc for the Baan database comes to 5000 EUR all together, until it's installed, mounted to the OS, and made available to the database by external consultants.

On the other side, server maintenaince can be done and usually is done by the Windows guy, if it's an NT system. NT Systems are cheaper in hardware maintainance. But they are very expensive in license costs.

Now: The windows guys mentioned above slowly build up Linux (not Unix!) knowledge: In every SME I have worked with there was at least one Linux box running (by the way, here in Germany it's mostly SuSE) and maintained inhouse, either for fun-and-test purpouses or Internet related stuff (Web server, Gateway, Firewall...).

To get to my point: Baan running on a Linux server would be cheaper for SMEs than running it on an NT server, but more stable. Linux boxes are Unix boxes that can and will be maintained inhouse.

Baan did grow with "micky mouse" unix boxes, because they were cheaper than mainframes, especially for the SMEs.
Baan did the jump from UNIX to NT in 1996 (I think) because of that reason: NT systems were cheaper, especially for the SMEs. Probably it's time to jump again to Linux for the same reason: because it's cheaper, especially for the SMEs.

By the way, PostgreSQL is a freeware database with all features a database needs... ;-)

Uli

Also, just look at the current evolution, even within the proprietary OS/HW vendors:

- IBM jumped in the wagon
- Compaq/HP also jumped in
- Intel is also actively supporting Linux
- Oracle supports Linux
- Even the other major ERP vendors jumped in...
- ...

There's no doubt that Linux is growing fast in the SME's (and even in bigger ones) and most companies are intersted in having cheaper Linux solutions and even because they can now split their current standalone server into a webserver, an ERP server, a DB server, etc., beeing able to bring redundancy and esay administration, a thing that only big OS/HW vendors could provide, at a huge cost.

[I think the reasons are too many already...]

I would like to see BaanERP on Mac OS X and XServe. It takes a lot less time to setup and has capacities of up to 360GB (Raid 5) in a 1U form factor. Database selection can be Oracle 9i/Sybase 11/MySQL.

With a lot of patches, binaries, service packs, it is often necessary to test them on several servers. Mac OS X can have you test Baan sessions right away and move them directly to the live XServe box.

Eric Gonzales
MIS Director
RCR Group
Los Angeles, CA

Little to add to the above.

One of the issues is that SCO (that was the Unix on cheap intel hardware) is degraded to B-platform, so no ongoing support anymore.

For SME's running that platform, there is no alternative except for NT. If they liked NT, they did choose it in the first place, but they did not.

Another point is said before but I feel the need to make it more explicit: Because a lot of IT people do something with Linux, the knowledge on that platform in general is more spread. This makes it more likely that people can handle their own systems.

It is like on NT. Because the look and feel on Windows is known to many, it is assumed that a NT server is easier to manage. Although it is mentioned not to be true, still it is common thinking. That is one of the reasons why NT is big in SME. Even without knowledge of Baan you can more or less do management on NT.

I still feel that particular in-dept Baan knowledge will and should be available from outsourcing companies. Because of its technique an ERP system is quite different from a native web server.

What flavour of Linux? I think a consortium will be a good guess for the future, but indeed, they still have to prove their quality. If big players like RedHat do not join, then what is their power? But I think we have gone beyond the point where (too) small companies run a distribution that have a good quality product but a unsecure chance to survive.

The selection of platform should more be done on thecnical grounds (suit for ERP, stability, ease of portability), so in my opinion should be left to Baan itself. As long as it is common available, it is ok.

I think for test and demonstration purposes too Linux would be a good platform.

One more thing: Please Do!

Hi Group,

one more issue has to be seen. Linux will also come as a client system. See some of the government organizations starting to decide to drop Microsoft products and to start with open source client machines like Linux. Baan has for Baan4 the X-client but what about Baan5? Till now there is no client for non Windows clients.

Please also think about this situation and build a client for the non Windows world.

Bye,

Garfield

Thanks for the replies so far.

I see several lines:
[list=1]
iBaan ERP on Linux will help Baan on the SME area. Where the only alternative currently is the Windows platform. Linux seems to be cheaper in tco than Windows. Linux knowledge is starting or growing in SMEes, cause they are using Linux now for there webservers, firewall, etc.
iBaan ERP on Linux will reduce your tco for test, development and training machines.
iBaan on ERP
There is not one particular favorite Linux flavor, some are asking RedHat, others Suse, Debian. Be careful with the United initiative.
Linux support might be done inhouse, from the hardware vendor, or from a one-stop shopping from Baan (Harware, Linux, ERP)
There are request for non-windows clients (Linux Clients, I've seen requests for Lindows in another thread, Mac OS, etc)
[/list=1]
By the way I'm already convinced that Linux is not any obscure little OS. The only problem I face is the amount of different flavors.

Can somebody there provide me some more data on the TCO with respect to the Windows platform. I'm thinking of hardware, licenses, stability, support, etc? I'm currently not sure if the Linux distribution and support that you want for ERP can be made cheaper than on Windows. Only if there is enough Linux knowledge in house, and that still starting for the SME market.

I'm sorry but I want to do first things first, and park the discussion on other iBaan ERP clients over here.
At this moment I cannot see a business case for iBaan ERP on MacOS, but we might start another thread on that need?

Feel free to react on this, because it's only my opinion and summary of the posts you did.

In terms of tco it is almost as important to have a client running on linux than the server (refer to MS license policy). Normally there are more clients than servers, so for licence fees thin clients with XServers are supposed to be cheaper.

Any client running on a Xserver should be ok. This can be (I suppose more ore less) flavourless.

Although, a client that can use Xserver must be connected to Unix Xserver... or Linux indeed.

I agree with Omeluuk in terms of cost savings on the client side. However one needs to keep into account the other practical uses the average office worker has with his/her desktop Windows PC in which BW/BX is only one of many. The question then is of course whether people would be willing to convert their Windows environment to an all or nothing Linux PC, dropping many of their accustomed Windows applications.

A solution for this may be that with the advance of WINE, many Windows based applications can be natively run on Linux as well. Q: has anyone ever attempted to run BW in Wine?

If a choice is necessary, I would put my eggs in the server basket first, then think of the client opportunities.

Or reversed, there is a Linux desktop that runs under Windows (Windux??). Not very practical in my opinion, but definitely a way to introduce users to Linux one step at a time.

Winfried is right, I think, when he says that currently the TCO for Windows or Linux clients is not all that far apart.

There is also a steep learning curve involved (both for users and administrators).

The best bang for the buck can be made on a server level, but personally I can't wait to run Baan on my trusted Linux box (Red Hat btw).

I'll give WINE a try one of these day, Pat.

Hello guys,

I just tested BW.EXE under Linux RedHat7.2 with Wine 20010731, and it works fine...

So, BW client for Linux exist now... :D :D :D

Hi Psehouri,

Could you provide more specs on the test you did with BW on Linux? What version of the BW client did you use, what did you exactly test (only running sessions, or also using BW print), etc.?

I would also like to know what other clients do run properly on Linux with Wine (Worktop, BW print). Could you test that as well?

Regards, Ivo

Version of BW Client : 4.0.2.45

I just run sessions, create new lines, update line, etc...
Printing using Display works fine.

Printing to a real printer : I tested but didn't work because I think that I have to modify some things in my wine.conf ...

BWPrint.exe can be executed and print a file .bpf

I think that if you want this to work, you could.

Hello Winfried,

we set up a test environement with a Linux Server (SuSE) with Baan IV (Linux Portingset) and we used the BW on a Linux Client (SuSE with Wine). Both worked fine and we are prepared to use such a combination in real life (but then with a "real" database and not with the TBase). We are requesting an offical supported Linux portingset since ages from Baan. I am really glad that Baan is now moving forward.

What kind of database would you like to use with Linux ? DB2 ?


Dieter

Here in Turkey we are having economic instability for the next two years. So it was a prerequisite for us to use low cost products and we began migrating our IT server OS's to Linux. The result is excellent. We are now running Oracle 9i on linux and may other enterprise systems. IT is a certain strategy for us to use linux. The only system we can not migrate is Baan. And we can not understand why. It should not be that difficult.

best regards

We have 2 baan servers, Baan IVc4, both NT with Oracle DBs.
We are ramping up for a large Bar-Coding project. If we had our Baan Servers running Linux, it would be simple as pie to telnet from RF handheld devices into the server, and run stripped-down baan sessions.

Instead, we may have to buy a mid-five figure middle-ware product, that may or may not meet our needs.

Baan on Linux would:
- increase configuration flexiblity
- decrease admin problems
- decrease costs of secondary projects like bar-coding


I am very glad to hear that Baan is seriously considering this.

John
(PS, someone should start a thread on the top 10 Baan on NT admin problems ):confused:

JRoberts: We have 2 baan servers, Baan IVc4, both NT with Oracle DBs. ... If we had our Baan Servers running Linux, it would be simple as pie to telnet from RF handheld devices into the server, and run stripped-down baan sessions.Why are the Baan servers running NT in the first place? If you would have used Unix you could have be doing the same like you want on Linux. And that is there already!(PS, someone should start a thread on the top 10 Baan on NT admin problems ):confused:Feel free to start it. I will contribute on shared memory ;-)

Hi there, I've been running the baan client under wine for several months. It is usable within limits.

It is running on a Dell Latitude Laptop with 128 Mb Ram.

Operating System: SuSe Linux 8.0

Windows version (installed software on 600MB partition):
windows 98

wine version: 20020605 --- compiled from source

baan client: B40c.65

baan server is BaaN IVb2 running on HP-UX 10.20 and informix 7.30

The windows 98 os had to be installed so that MS Outlook could be installed under windows. (installing under wine did not work).

the wine server is set to run in "Managed Mode" (ie. X windows controls the windows frames etc).

I use this BaaN client routinely.
The problems that I've experienced are:
- the fonts inside display fields are a bit oversized so that
sometimes it's a bit hard to read the value.
- printing to display automatically brings up a bw message with formating errors (the report still prints to display and is perfectly readable)
- the option dialogue box is tiny and unusable.
- running a session in debug mode automatically crashes.
- occasionally, the window manager takes a while to size new windows correctly. (ie. the session may flicker for upto 30seconds).

other than this, the client works well on my current system.

DbuG (german baan user group) Meeting mit E.Seppenwoolde
(President EMEA) 24.9.2002
quest.:
Supported operating systems: Unix/Linux/Wintel – Open source initiatives?
answer:
Clear commitment given to support Unix in future. "Unix is vital for Baan". A Linux porting
set will be released to market in the near future.


no comment

So now we just have to wait and see...

Just got back from BWU in LA..

A question was given to Laurens Van Der Tang during one of the sessions about Baan and Linux.

His answer was that "we will probably Have-to support Linux at one point. I think we will soon".

Regards

- Bader

I went lately to a customer that was fashinated by the linux world, but he was scared of not having support from a big company like IBM or Microsoft. He said that he would really like to use linux and application on linux but he would need a strong company to support him.

This is a very popular tought and I think that, as a commercial player, BaaN should have an alliance with MORE than one linux distributor.

Just to tell some name: Suse and RedHat are probably the best supported, but I would like to push on Debian also.

Another question about approaching the open source world is: will baan support open source databases, i.e. PostgreSQL?

Bye,
Giuseppe Sacco

Hi guys,

During the last inForum at Rome, after he spook with the CEO of IBM EMEA, I told Laurens Van Der Tang that is vital for our community to release and support a Porting Set for Linux.

His answer was that "we will probably Have-to support Linux at one point. I think we will soon"... the same that he gave 1 year before.

Sorry Laurens, time's over. Our patience is over.

If you want a not-released-a-bit-old-but-perfectly-working Porting Set of Baan IV for Linux just send me an e-mail and I will be happy to send it to anyone of you.

claudio.montanari@know-how.it

Ciao.
Claudio.

Same cake, different icing. Linux, in its various distributions, is a fine UNIX-like platform. Let's face it, though, the awful array of flavors of Linux "icing" (ala distributions) is killing me. I can't move from one dist to the next without having to learn, essentially, a new OS (filesystem layout, admin tools, rc vs. sys5 init scripts).

All this wondeful development in Linux is great, and a fine display of programming skill. But I see feature creep, bloatware, and versioning slide making its way into our happy pasture. The plagues of past and present versions of Windows, and the schism between SVR4 and 4.xBSD is being seen within the Linux playground.

:mad: I cannot speak for other dists accurately, but Red Hat makes me go non-linear. I've been using Linux for years and have seen the problems. Die hard Linux nuts in my circle of friends are switching to FreeBSD or OpenBSD because they can't bear another core/critical library getting hosed because the bleeding edge is the Linux way!

Sorry for the soapbox but these are points to keep in mind. Having said them, I want to say I do, in fact, support a Linux version of Baan. If I can get the same performance from an Intel based Linux box, why should I pay through the nose for HP, Sun, etc? :eek:

If you aren't a hardware junkie, UNIX admin, DBA such as myself (and many others) you can rely on your vendors for support of their products (Dell for example supports Linux on their servers, Baan would support Baan, etc).

I don't see the death of "big iron" any time soon. Linux, while a great platform, still has growing pains. If I have to compile and install a piece of software, please don't make me rely on bleeding edge libraries, tools, APIs, or system calls. If my server crashes because of that I'll be mad!

Hey, how about a native (non-Linux binary compatibility) *BSD port? I'd love to see Baan in the ports collection on www.freebsd.org! :cool:

FriarTuck: Having said them, I want to say I do, in fact, support a Linux version of Baan.You make us curious on what kind of Baan server you support:
1) What Linux version
2) What portingset version (ba6.1 -v)
3) What database
4) What Baan version?

Originally posted by OmeLuuk
You make us curious on what kind of Baan server you support:
1) What Linux version
2) What portingset version (ba6.1 -v)
3) What database
4) What Baan version?


Oops, not quite what I meant! Sorry, I meant to say that I "support the idea of Baan on Linux". Although I've been successful at installing and running (limping?) with Baan on Linux I'm not running it for production. I've since removed it from my workstation (too much space).

FWIW:

Red Hat 6.2
2.2.14 kernel (no mods to shm settings)
Oracle 8i (8.1.7)
Pentium II - 450MHz - 256MB RAM
I have no idea about which portingset

Ah, alas... thought to have found an early adept... BTW, test only would be fine enough.

I know of a portingset for Linux, but that was a very old one already when I saw it for the first time...

Hey maybe they'll release the source code under a GPL-type license... :p

I don't know enough about how the baan code works/looks to know if this is easily possible, but an updated Linux/BSD portingset (even if unsupported) would be a "good thing"(tm). It would give Baan Co. a feather ("Hey look we can also do Linux/BSD!") and it could give us a feather also ("Hey look Linux/BSD can run with the big dogs!")

At the autumn Baan Users UK & Ireland User Group conference on Tuesday 12th November there was a slide showing future releases for Baan IVc4 and BaanERP 5.0c.

I can't remember any major additions to the Baan IVc4 area, but for Baan 5.0c a Linux Porting set was present!! This is good news! :) :) :)

Phil

Originally posted by OmeLuuk
You make us curious on what kind of Baan server you support:
1) What Linux version
2) What portingset version (ba6.1 -v)
3) What database
4) What Baan version?

Porting set : 6.1c.03
Port no. : TD.PROTO
Date : Mon Jul 6 11:50:20 MET DST 1998

I recently tried this (old) linux porting set on both an old Suse with tbase and Debian with oracle9.2. It worked very good with tbase and not-so-bad with oracle.

I think that porting baan to linux is a matter of will. Tecnically speaking you need to support two major distributions and *listen* to all linux users.

I think that linux users are always a community that would send patches on every kind of shell script they would have to chance to see (rc, sysV, alg6.1, ...).

So I believe that the better method is to say: this is the porting set for linux. We support the X and Y distribution in this first release and we encourage all our users base to send comments and patches to us. We will then decide what to do with other distributions, based on our user base feedback (distribution used, patches received).

Bye,
Giuseppe Sacco

wvholland: Please provide some of your feelings.The thread Baan on Linux sits in the top 10 with posts, and in the top 5 with views. This thread has a top 10 position in views, and is number 12 when it comes to posts...

To restart the discussion of Baan and Linux enclosed the answer from the Management of SSA Global to the DbuG (German Baan Usergroup) regarding the Linux porting set.

Q:
Which platform strategy does SSA Global pursue: Will Baan give
equal support for Unix (which Unix versions, and what about
Linux?) and Windows, or will there be a preference?
(To date, some iBaan suite solutions have only been made
available under Windows.)

A:
The technical architecture of SSA Baan ERP will remain to be multi-
platform and multi-database. The platforms and databases that
will be supported out of the box are determined based on the
demand of our customers.
Thus far customers demand was not concrete enough to have a
clear business case for investing in a Linux port. Customer
demand will be closely monitored. Any concrete input is welcome
and can be directed to Bram Pieterse (bpieterse@baan.nl).
Linux support at the client (BW, Worktop) is not being
considered, since the strategy is to only support Windows on the
client.


Regards,
Juergen

I think it is a strategical mistake not to support the client on a Linux Desktop.

I hope that Baan sticks to W3C standards (standard HTML, etc) for webtop so that it can still be accessed via mozilla.

I am sure that with somebody like CodeWeavers (www.codeweavers.com) would be able get a Win32 worktop/bw working to a satisfactory level, as they currently do with MS Office, when there is demand for it.

If I were Baan, I would keep developing a Win32 front end and ensure that web access was fully standards complicant.

In Germany, public administration or government area requires support of linux server and client releases because usage of "open software" is recommended from central it department.
see also "Migrationsleitfaden":


http://kbst.bund.de/Themen-und-Projekte/Software-,223/Migration.htm

Linux support at the client isn't considered? Very bad. :mad: How can anyone ignore Linux reality now?

Ok SSA says "Multiplatform", but which platforms? And why only on serverside?

On clientside the only platform is Windows. Why not Linux KDE/Gnome or making a javaclient?

includes codewaever, you can
start/install becs and worktop with that

baan 5 and up already has a Web client, I believe that this is the direction that Baan wants to go. Simuteanous development of
BW/BECS, Worktop and Webtop is just a waste of resources. SSA has a nice little web product that I believe will show up as a Baan 4 "Multi-Platform" client.
Multi-Platform meaning anything that can start a web-browser.

Dave

But that depends on Win emulation, it is not native Linux

Although I think wine is a great application, it is not exactly best practice to run any business app through an emulator.

As businesses are still looking to cut costs, linux is once again a hot item. How hard can it be for Baan to port BW to linux? For that matter, I asked a Windows CE client for Christmas (but all I got was this lousy t-shirt).

A web based client is great, but is (IMO) not a generic solution for every situation.

How does running baan through a web client involve win emulation again? I haven't been paying that much attention... seems like any browser + java libs would do the trick.


Dave

@all

i have had 2 hours ago a demonstration of ERP 6.0 by the director of presales in germany. He also gives us some statements by SSA for Linux :

Baan IV will be supported Baan IVc with SUSE Linux (and only IVc for the first time !)

The first installation of an beta release is the next week for one customer in germany.

Good news !

Martin

I also heard rumors that Redhat and TurboLinux will follow later.

As there seems not much official information yet I think the rumors will continue coming weeks ;)

Kinds regards,
Dick

Found in the release notes of the latest portingset for BaanIVc:

MaintBaanIVc: # 21457 (BDUX14238): Suse Linux changes

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 17:07:09 +0100

Created on: MaintBaanIVc
Type: porting specific change

Problem Description (Technical terms)
Linux port on Suse SLES 8. And more and better testing that previously done on Red Hat 7.3.

Test Procedure
Installation test, regression test, and business flow test on linux (far too much for one developer)

Affected Executables
all

check solution 142799

Does anybody know which porting set works with Linux ?

I know that there is a Baan IV installation working on a x86 Linux Suse platform in Germany, but I don't know which porting set is installed there.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Best Regards,

6.1c.07.03 running on SuSe Linux Enterprise Server 8

Juergen

No version available on :

www.support.baan.com

Where is possible download the version ?

Bye

Max

You can´t download this version because it´s not available for general use. I guess you have to wait until Baan/SSA launch the next version offically.

Dieter

with introduction of the new porting set 6.1c.07.04 (09 Jul 2004) the linux version is now official available on the Baan support side.

Please see the technical notes to solution 145060 and also the download paths to solution 125018.

Have fun,
Juergen