hi evryun

i had been using SSA ln 6.1 for three months.but i decisively doubt it's ability to be user friendly... not even me but all my colleagues are of the same opinion.

ya another thing ... have you used MS excel?I would say, excel is far more explicit than SSA ln6.1. as per user friendliness is concerned.

don't you think that if ssa could have had the features like copy, paste, find and replace options as designed in Excel. It would have made the life of key 'n' end user's far more easier

I think it's kind of weird to compare an ERP-system with something like Excel. Isn't that the same as wishing for the same easiness to fly a boeing 747 as it is to ride a go-kart?:p

well i knew this could b the argument... that one cannot compare horse with elephant or the way u say . i donot have personal grudges against ln6.1; but it would be better if you could reply my question: Is SSA ERP ln6.1 user friendly?

Hello,

Regarding ERPLN6.1 being user friendly . I think its quite user friendly . you can do a copy and paste , if you have multi ocurrance form with many rows you simply can take the entire data to excel .what kind of user friendly are you looking at even SAP is like that.

frankly... i have never used SAP. my very first ERP software is ssa.

I am working in a manufacturing org., where there are a lot of variations in the item codes being generated after a small period of time...(say due to material changes or even a small variation like change in "thickness of plate").

But what happens is the same codes with little variations are to be formed again by a copying earlier items(similar) by a copy session, which has to be opened again and again after selecting the item(required to be changed). u know it doesnot matter for 10 items but it does for a hundered or more

i suppose you got my problem ....

Hi Rajanbansal,

For such things, as you have pointed out excel is the one which is user friendly and Baan users do use excel extensively to do such copy and other manipulations. Then they do migration using Baan exchange. The answer to your question is, use migration extensively wherever such mass actions are needed. Migration is an extensive area but here are a few general points that might be useful.

1. Remember to use DAL for your imports, wherever possible. In your case for example, if you import just the general item data, system will automatically insert other master data like item warehousing data, item purchase data etc. based on your Item defaults.

2. Using CSV files will reduce the work load.

3. You don't have to maintain all the fields in your excel spreadsheet. Your ascii file structure can be as minimal as possible but it must have the index fields. Other fields can be mentioned with constants or defaults.

4. Use condition scripts if you know it is possible to select the field values from other baan tables.

Creating an exchange scheme is not user friendly but it is a one time set up.

Regards,
srikarthy

hi evryun

i had been using SSA ln 6.1 for three months.but i decisively doubt it's ability to be user friendly... not even me but all my colleagues are of the same opinion.

ya another thing ... have you used MS excel?I would say, excel is far more explicit than SSA ln6.1. as per user friendliness is concerned.

don't you think that if ssa could have had the features like copy, paste, find and replace options as designed in Excel. It would have made the life of key 'n' end user's far more easier

ERP systems are always not user friendly. Users are always not ERP friendly. Normally users will complain ERP system for not user friendly. But since ERP systems cannot complain....

Many users still like to copy the data from ERP and put it on Excel. Asking why they want to do that, their answer is " I just feel secure to put the data on Excel. I can easily search what I want on Excel". So teaching them how to use "find" or "filter" to locate the data. " No, No, I know you can do that on ERP. But I still like to use Excel."

That's why many ERP implementations failed. :>

@srikarthy
thanx for yours detailed reply.I m findin out, if these tools work in my situation





@tritonbaan
hmm...
you must have done a lot of research before posting the comments of 'Many users', who still like to copy the data from ERP and put it on Excel.

but, this might not be the case with users other than 'Many users'

regards
rajan

frankly... i have never used SAP. my very first ERP software is ssa.

I am working in a manufacturing org., where there are a lot of variations in the item codes being generated after a small period of time...(say due to material changes or even a small variation like change in "thickness of plate").

But what happens is the same codes with little variations are to be formed again by a copying earlier items(similar) by a copy session, which has to be opened again and again after selecting the item(required to be changed). u know it doesnot matter for 10 items but it does for a hundered or more

i suppose you got my problem ....

Probably process mapping is not done properly . U can use lean configurator / product configurator in the scenario u listed .

Product configurator definitely requrires an expert knowledge of the product structures of ur company , PCF module and the constraint writing skills .

Lean configurator (Unit effectivity module ) is what u can explore on ur own if have some time to explore.

"Before setting up product configuration in SSA ERP, you must define items of the Generic type...", this is as stated in the ssa help.

most of the items(99%) in the organisation,where I am working are of type manufacturing or purchase.
So PCF(product config) has not been configured.

before we go more in to PCF I would like to ask another problem.
i.e.
Can we calculate the sum of weights of child items in a bill of material
e.g. if a pen is made of a cap (made of 50grams plastic), a refil(25grams) and body(150grams)
now complete pen weighs 225 grams

my worktop doesnot displays this option(to calculate the weight for material assessments)
can we customise the worktop as per this requirement?if yes, plz explain

Dear rajanbansal,

With LN you have the ability to configure products without setting up PCF.
This is what is called "the lean configurator" and will allow you to build specific customer requirements in a BOM using Unit Effectivity.

To me this looks like a very promising concept because it seems no PCS is needed and customer specific requirements can be built into a standard BOM.

Compared to previous SSA BAAN versions this is very user friendly at first glance :).

It also looks like this discussion has to be moved to the Manufacturing forum as we are no longer talking about a general topic.
If you want to keep things separated you can also create a new thread regarding your Manufacturing issues so this post does not have to be moved.

When u want to generate new item code with new BOM / Routing , u need to use PCF . U use unit effectivity when u dont want to generate new item code for minor differences but at the same time make change in BOM / routing for a particular order / unit , u use unit effectivity .

Good thing in LN is u can use PCF on anonymous item ie without using PCS projects module and constraint writing is relatively simple .

To answer whether u can change the BOM quantity / item , in PCF it's definitely yes . In lean configurator , u can either accept / decline a BOM line completely but can not change the quantity or BOM item code .

I'll keep it general, I do think the tools / look and feel are not as user friendly as they could be. I think they will work this out in specifics. For example, near and dear to me, Hours and Expenses. You are in the overview (multi main table type thing), when it should be a maintain in my opinion, but fine. You double click on the record you want to modify, and it takes you to display only. You have to go up to the top and push their TINY little 'Production Order' or 'Work Order' buttons to get to another multi occurance of THAT type, then maintain them. Then exit back out to the main area to see the totals..... blah.

Makes my streamlined process look pretty good at least :)

I also felt that this discussion has moved a bit offbeat... for this i will start a new thread, namely,unit effectivity.
So that I can come to a solution(though lengthy one)... with help of hitesh and other gurus

But as I dig deeper in to this software i realise, that it solves problems but not in a 'user friendly manner'. there are so many steps for a very simple problem; that one seems lost in the puzzle.

lbencic also has put a good point..."I do think the tools / look and feel are not as user friendly as they could be".

I too feel that tools are not designed as they could be and they even lack "aesthetic looks". One does feel bored, while looking at the same dull window for months. if you say one can customise the graphics... huh!

@tritonbaan
hmm...
you must have done a lot of research before posting the comments of 'Many users', who still like to copy the data from ERP and put it on Excel.

but, this might not be the case with users other than 'Many users'

regards
rajan[/QUOTE]

:D Yes, this is my observation on the behaviour of many users in different companies. I am glad that you are not one of them. That means your company's implementation may be quite successful.

As a consultant, I am interested in why an ERP system cannot be implemented well in a company.

You may have interest to check out our suggestions.

http://www.erpcollege.com/implementation.html

Now I would not dwell on PCF and UEF in this thread .

Lisa ,

Though ERP Ln screens are better than Baan IV , We too face stiff resistance from users in accepting vanilla screen many places. They are asking easy entry screens which asks least information with few mouse and keyboard clicks with all defaulting , automation and integration capabilities . I believe u have done some good work in hours and expense . If u have done some work in following area in ERP Ln and u can share the same with us , we would be very much thankful to u .
1. Hour & expenses
2. Report operations copmlete
3. Sales orders with PCF
4. sales invoicing
5. Warehouse inbound/outbound
6. Any other area in finance , distribution and manufacturing

This will provide some good starting point for us .

Countless thanks to u in advance.

I believe the main issue here is that the vendor (Infor SSA BAAN) is proud of the richness of its product because it can do so many things and you can do this from one session/place.
However, end users are only looking for simplicity, sexy "look-and-feel" and a product that is easy to use.

In other words, it's all about managing expectations of customers and how well that has been done from the early stages in the sales process.

True . But in our case large chunk of user expectations come from legacy system (which is not Baan IV in this case) . We do try to manage the same but there are limitations to it .

the richness of the product is definitely an advantage to the vendor but doing so many things without simplicity can create disadvantage in the longer run.

And simplicity cannot be achieved by simply managing the sales process.this has to be achieved all in all with customer's satisfaction and simplicity of the software

regards,
rajan

My experience with users coming off a legacy system is that everything has been automated for them. Even the most complex processes.
When moving to an ERP system users are suddenly forced to start thinking about how they have to run these processes through the system. The automation in the ERP system has not been migrated over because the implementation team is happy they are able to book orders, ship inventory and print invoices out of the standard ERP system.

But ... users prefer to go back to "sleep" and wish everything was automated for them just like the old system.

Managing these kind expectations is also an important step in the process of selling a system like LN 6.1.
Many times implementators like to blame the system so they can stay "friends" with the users at customers' sites.
As far as I am concerned this is all no problem but the people responsible for selling LN6.1 should make the customer aware of the above so the same complaining and bashing is not happening over and over again during an implementation.

In other words, it's all about managing expectations of customers ....

This sounds as if these expectations of user's friendlyness have to be surpressed, which I strongly oppose.
Expectations = wishes & demands.
If you don't meet the expectations then you haven't done enough research to identify these demands, or you've done a bad job.
I have no hands on experience with LN (yet), have seen only two demo's of the product so far, but am also disappointed by the lack of user friendlyness.

There are two things here: business process automation (which is what an ERP system is about) versus user's autonomy and program flexibility, the other issue is a program's user friendlyness. A major reason why users often revert to something like Excel (a personal productivity tool) is that the ERP system simply tries to automate all steps that are agreed as the business process in the company. Then when only the simplest out-of-the-process need comes up, something just a little out of the ordinary, being it only to sort data differently, mass-insert data, filter data, format data differently, or whatever futile option, they are suddenly not able to do this. IT has to be contacted, change requests to be filled in, appropriate authorization needs to be required, etc. etc. etc.
Understandably this frustrates end-users, and as they are used to this kind of flexibility in their personal productivity tool (e.g. Excel) of which they have complete control themselves the acceptance level of the ERP system drops. Especially in smaller companies, where a business process in an ERP is quickly replaced by sending an Excel sheet to your two or three collegues.
This automation vs. users autonomy is inherent to an ERP implementation.

Now user friendlyness is something else IMO. LN is obviously an upgraded and upgraded package of the 70's. It is designed to enter data and transactions, but they have forgotten that people also need to use the system to look up information. My users don't use the Quotes system in BaaN because whenever they want to lookup something, being it only simply a list of open quotes, or recently expired quotes, or quotes _about_ to expire of one of their customers it takes them for ages to complete this list. Then they do not even have the possibility to add some text to the quote about the status or some inside information they know. Ah YES....!, they can add text using that text button ! So where does that show if your customer calls you and you quickly want to see that list of your open quotes? In demo's of LN I have seen the same lack of user friendlyness. More recent ERP systems designed on the windows platform win this from LN, simply because they are more intuitive to the end-user.
Microsoft spends billions on investigating how users use their software. Have you ever seen any information about BaaN/SSA/Infor researching how users use their software ? How they use the BA/BW/web interface ?

Robert

This sounds as if these expectations of user's friendlyness have to be surpressed, which I strongly oppose.
Expectations = wishes & demands.

Robert,

I fully agree with you here and I am not saying expectations have to be surpressed.
I am only saying they have to be managed and this process starts in the beginning of the sales cycle.
As we all know, expectations are high as soon as the implementation starts but in the end everybody is happy when the first invoice is printed and when going live only the basics will be implemented. The good stuff like automation of processes will be referred to as "Phase 2".

Furthermore, this is turning into a very interesting discussion and we are getting to the core of why users percieve the "BAAN" software as not user friendly.
This issue has been out there since I started in the BAAN space in 1996 and many threads and posts have been logged about this on BaanBoard already.

"managing expectations", I would say it is a very big word, also it might be very hard to achieve this kind of management... and in consequence another software will have to configured naming it as EMS (expectations management software ;) [just stating in a lighter sense])

in other sense i mean its not possible to manage the expectations unless as robert stated ssa does research on the user friendliness of the software.
and considering many posts from users stating that baan is not user friendly; may conclude baan as 'not user friendly'.

but when will baan look towards this aspect (user friendliness)?

PS:I donot mean that it is a hopeless software but as far tools for updating and maintaining diverse data are concerned it sometimes frustrates the user

I am not in a position to defend the SSA BAAN software and in general terms I agree the software is not user friendly.
However, we have to stay practical and so one can only manage the expectations of users by being honest up front and not blame everything to the system.

I have been very much involved with Microsoft Dynamcis Ax 3.0 (Axapta) for the last 10 months and so far I have not met one user complaining about user unfriendliness. Axapta is much easier to use compared to BAAN IV, BAAN V and LN.
My heart is still with the "BAAN" software and sometimes I wished "BAAN" could do the things Axapta can do from an easy-to-use aspect.
Of course Axapta 3.0 has other weaknesses like less functionality (even compared to IV) but the look-and-feel of Axapta is very sexy.

Hopefully Infor will be prepared to spend the money on researching the possibilities of making their products user friendlier.
In the end it is all about priorities and a discussion forum like BaanBoard is the wrong place to have a discussion like this as BaanBoard has no relationship with Infor and suggestions made on BaanBoard are of no meaning to Infor.

Is SSA Ln user-friendly?

Generally speaking, it isn't. I do not think any ERP is as user-friendly as Excel because Excel allows users to do anything they want even make faults.
But, comparing with SAP, I think SSA Ln is more standardized and tidy. You know, for example, the User Interfaces of AP and AR are quite different, even they always seems to be a pair. I mean, in SAP, that you know how to use one module does not mean you know the others. But, SAP is more functional.

However, comparing with some upcoming ERP, like Microsoft AX (formerly called Axapta), those are undoubtedly more user-friendly and much integrated with MS Office because they are based on Windows platform. Of course, the company deploying those ERPs ought to be bounded by Microsoft. For example, the authorization of latest version of Microsoft AX is controlled by Microsoft AD server. Thus, if you buy MS AX, you does not simply buy a ERP system but a bundle of MS products.

I was out of town, just getting to answer Hitesh. Unfortunately for the general public, our streamlined sessions are our products, I can't publish the code, etc. Certainly we could show you a demo, that's what we do.

But for general background, to do something like Streamline the Hours & Expenses session for ease of use for Hours Entry, we use our shop floor interface (OpenWorld based on LN), to collect very basic functional information from the user, such as:
Start Work on a Production Order, the user provides only:
Employee ID, Order, Operation (all else is defaulted unless they want to also provide, such as Task, Work Center..as needed).

To streamline Report Op Complete, the user provides only:
Order, Operation, Quantity
Our process would take that information and make the necessary LN entries using the DAL2 methodology.

You could do similar through your own custom sessions, take the simple information in, and make the LN entries using DAL2 calls when they choose continue.

Lisa ,

Thanks for the reply. I dont need more detailed information . All we need is pointer in the right direction . So this is good hint .

We do not have Opern world Ln with us . AFS on MMT can not work . Are our options limited . Do the AFS on sessions related to MMT work properly when run in isolation . Have u or anybody used AFS in Ln for sessions related to MMT .

Further is DAL2 and DAL are different? Any document numbers on DAL2 would be great help .

Thanks in advance .

Hitesh,

AFS does not work with MMT. Refer to the latest SSA ERP LN 6.1 Programmers Guide


Extended DAL (DAL2)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Overview
In SSA ERP LN the DAL concept is introduced to centralize integrity checks. One of the goals is to be able to re-use these integrity checks rather than implementing them again and again. In practice however, it appears that these integrity checks are hard to re-use in the UI layer. As a result, a lot of business logic is programmed in the UI scripts. Another problem is that since developers often only test the application via the User Interface, the DAL on its own is not well tested.

It also appeared that it is very hard to use the current DALs for Integrations via Baan OpenWorld, because too often business logic is spread across the DAL and the UI scripts.

The DAL2 concept is introduced to tackle these issues. With DAL2 a number of new hooks is introduced that make it possible to define the integrity checks in such a way that they are easier to re-use. One of the major benefits is that the 4GL engine now re-uses these hooks to perform automatic disabling/enabling of fields and commands.

Another important improvement is that DAL2 makes it possible to define field dependencies in such a way that they can be used to determine correct values for fields that are not known by other components. Until now (in the Corelli Release), this was already possible for external products that Integrated with SSA ERP LN using Baan OpenWorld. The DAL2 concept now makes it possible to re-use the field dependencies in the SSA ERP LN application as well. Also, the 4GL engine makes use of the defined field relations in order to determine default values in the User Interface.

Include files
You have to include bic_dal2 in your DAL to make it an Extended (DAL2) DAL.