I speak with numerous companies thinking of moving away from Baan - but they can't find a real reason to jump apart from the ongoing speculation about the company's future and potential problems in 5 years time if they do nothing. Is this common sentiment?

Hi,

I think a lot of the existing BAAN IV customers will stay where they are. They have implemented their system a few years ago in most cases and not too long ago came out of the deep hole from 'Going Live'.
Officially BAAN IV will be supported by BAAN until 2008 and so there is no reason to make any hasty decisions.

Many of the BAAN IV customers can still do lots of optimizations to their IT investment by adding on new applications like MS CRM or other CRM packages, data warehousing solutions like Crystal and data collection packages. Usually companies have IT budgets available for these kind of "small" investments with a visible ROI.
Another thing that I personally noticed the last six months is that existing customers tell me they would like to know more about the capabilities of BAAN because they have the feeling they are not using it to its full extend.
In these cases the people that initially implemented the system are no longer with the company and so due to turn over of employees the new people are faced with a system they do not fully understand. In a few cases the new people actually decided to make changes to parameter settings and made changes to the set up of base data in tcmcs and tccom.

Moving away from BAAN means selecting a new ERP system and to go through all the implementation pains again.
This is way more expensive and I do not see many companies that are prepared to spend the amounts of money for this right now.

Regards,

Edwin

EdwinvdBorg: ... existing customers tell me they would like to know more about the capabilities of BAAN because they have the feeling they are not using it to its full extend...I agree on this. A lot of companies only use a small amount of the functionality and a lot of money can be "made" by making a better use of the (already available but yet unknown) Baan functionality.

I have seen this especially in areas that are not the core of an implementation: PDM, Project, Service and system integrations.

In my case I have developed a two day program in BAAN IV to demo Service for 1.5 days and then for 0.5 day to discuss the business requirements with a plan of action.
Because BAAN V Service is totally different from BAAN IV and has much more to offer it takes usually 3 to 4 days to do this.

Also with regards to system integrations customers really have to understand what their corporate IT strategy is.
They need a platform for both inter-enterprise integrations (integrate BAAN with other applications used within the company) and intra-enterprise integrations (doing business over the internet, deploying e-commerce applications and being prepared to do business process re-engineering with suppliers and customers).

There are so many things customers can do to improve the way they use BAAN so any discussions about moving away from BAAN are a waste of time and money.

Regards,

Edwin

Many thanks for your replies - appreciated and good points, all. But with the case of companies/users on Triton (Baan3) staring at a major upgrade project from a business system that is 5+ years old, surely it makes sense to review market offerings and look at where the business needs to go.
From a FD/ITD perspective, we regularly discuss the fact that there is a high degree of risk associated with staying on a platform/product that has a poor roadmap, with a business that has changed hands too often and an uncertain future.
The real shame for Baan is that the ERP solution was as good as the other market players but lost direction. Decisions on 'what to do next' are not simply based on the product itself.

In case you are talking about Triton 2.2 and Triton 3.1 then it becomes a totally different ball game.

If I were in that situation I would definitely move away from BAAN and not go to a higher version of BAAN.
My best bet in this case is to wait for Axapta 4.0 from Microsoft Business Solutions that will be released early next year.
However, there are so many factors involved in selecting a new ERP platform so it all depends on the company what they need.

The issues that are troubling the Triton (2.2 and 3.1) customers now will be the same for the BAAN IV customers in the future.
Unless SSA has been able to really turn around BAAN and to make it a competitive solution again.

Regards,

Edwin

If a company is in Triton 2.2 or 3.1, and looking to moving to a higher version, it is best to go through the evaluation process.

Moving to Baan IV c4 will not necessarily give the best ROI despite the maintenance cost as the only software cost to consider. In five years time (2008), a similar decision has to be made by users in Baan IV c4.

From Baan IV to Baan V alone, there is a potential for large implementation budget because of the new functionalities. Of course, this can be offset by the benefits that can be derived from the new functionalities which ultimately depends on business and process models. Then there is "Gemini" to consider.

This applies for any other software in this area. If your software version is at least 2 major versions from the latest, it is best to include alternatives and re-evaluate the choices.

foxguard: ... If your software version is at least 2 major versions from the latest, it is best to include alternatives and re-evaluate the choices.This is an interesting statement... because:[list=1] Baan IVc is still maintained... so is this a "latest version" in your opinion. BaanIVc4 sp13 can handle a lot of the new developments that are also available for iBaanERP5.2, like Worktop and new database versions (some not all level 2). What is wrong whith a company that use their IT investment even after the financial payback period is over and the technological state of the software is outdated, but the needs of the company is within the limits of the current software. Running after each IT innovation does cost a lot of money and not always brings the benefits it promised to have. Proven functionality of the current known software (and already paid) can beat the uncertainty of new software with better funcionality on paper... You know what you have, but you do not know what you get. Provided there is no Y2K or Euro issue, and there is no managers who like the keen look and the marketing talks of the other software factory, what is bad on the old version. If you could work with it for some 10 years, why not in the next 20? I think aiming your strategy on software versions does not make sense. [/list=1]

I think Omeluuk's points are spot-on. There is still some life in BaanIV and it is not good business to upgrade for the sake of upgrading.

The issues that I see in deciding to upgrade depend on weighing up the costs and benefits.
The benefits could include:
- new functionality that would provide tangible benefit to the company
- availability of software support to assure the continued operation of the systems in the event of personnel and/or hardware change
- lower operating costs (faster or streamlined operation, lower support costs)
- support for latest RDBMS software (ie:Oracle9i) and/or interface with latest data mining or other software

The cost of the upgrade could include:
- need to pay ongoing support fees that may not be incurred if no support were required
- any costs for additional functionality that is not covered with the existing licence arrangements
- cost of the migration to the new version and the cost of testing/implementing the software
- cost of any retraining of users for any difference in UI
- cost of any features/arrangements that are either lost or now charged for with the new software implementation

In the case of upgrading from BaanIV which is very good, is stable, is function rich and will be continue to be supported for some years yet, I think that firstly we need to get a feel for the new SSA-Baan company before embarking on an upgrade project for the sake of having newer-version software.

Depending on what we see of the new company we may well be better off biting-the-bullet and upgrading to JDE, Oracle or some other offering. From the little I have gleaned so far from a teleconference with the regional SSA-General Manager last week and in answering the Customer Survey this week I do not hold high hopes for a positive change in attitude from Baan.

The Regional GM gave the impression of playing the role of a conquering general, despite the fact that he would have had no input or involvement let alone influence over the acquisition, what so ever. He was accompanied by the same local Baan sales executive yes-man whom I would assess as being more a part of the problem than being part of a solution.

The questionnaire purported to be aimed at getting to know the customers needs so as to better serve them, but to me it looked like a fairly amateurish attempt to find out how much the company had budgeted to spend on systems, what they were prepared to pay and what their capacity to pay was. It did not even attempt to find out anything about the company's products, its modus-operandi or its market-space.

Terry

"If a company is in Triton 2.2 or 3.1, and looking to moving to a higher version, it is best to go through the evaluation process."

I agree with Omeluuk but my last paragraph is still based on the first paragraph of my post, the possibilities of which Terry exactly discussed.
Somewhere along the line, software will be more expensive to configure and maintain just to make it responsive to the business than to move to a newer version.
When you are looking at Triton 2.2 & 3.1 versions, going into version "V" release "cx" is a big change that has to be managed.
The risks are the same as implementing a new software altogether. In cases such as these it is best to go through an audit and evaluation process.

Using this method, we have shown one customer that is was better for them to move from Triton to Baan IV and not Baan V.
The client is now stable with distribution/finance, and planning to finally implement manufacturing after 5 years in Triton 3.1 then 1 year in Baan IVc4.

In the past 3 years I have had the opportunity, through Acquistions, to try a number of other systems, while trying to get their data into Baan. I have tried a number of smaller systems including GrowthPower, AcPac, and even had the opportunity to try Oracle. I have found that Baan is a much more robust system than any of them. We have been using a good portion of the system for a long time (Triton 3.1b, B4b, B5b, and B5c in the next 4 weeks) including EDM, Manufacturing, Projects, Product Configuration,Purchasing, Finance, and next month Sales. I have found very little that it can't do. I also agree that most people using the system don't know what they have, do most in part that nobody every showed them correctly. Baan has spent their time and money on explaining what the new systems will do and how they will do it better, trying to convince people to buy something they don't need (Scheduler and Planner in Baan 5), instead of showing them the basics of how to get the most of what they have. At last years BWU conference I had an loud disscussion with our Sales rep who was pushing the Scheduler as the be all tool. Many companies don't understand the amount of set-up and maintenance required to make standard Baan work and they are trying to sell them a tool that requires those set-ups to be even more accurate.
I agree with the statements that you need to re-evaluate your needs before going from one version to the next, because no matter what you choose it is both painful and expensive. Look at where you are finding issues and ask those questions here, or better yet go to the Baan Users and ask them there, you would be pleased with some of the answers that you get back. Some of us have shared you issues and may have found a way to get past them, or we can tell you if we really did see benefits from going forward. If you are IT, bring a user with you, you will greatly appreciate the knowledge that they gain by understanding the functionality and not making you create something that already exist in the system.

One point in your reply requires some discussionMike Richard ... I have found very little that it can't do. I also agree that most people using the system don't know what they have, do most in part that nobody every showed them correctly.I think this is a point where you should not mix up the contribution of Baan (or reseller) and the "customer". When a new version of Windows is rolled out or when some text-processor is replaced by some office package, the users are send off for courses. Not by the reseller but by the "customer". Training (on the job) and overview training of (key) users can change the way your company work with Baan. People do not use software they do not know.

Of course expanding the use of Baan within a company will surely have a bigger impact, and needs to be guided by people who know the new functionality and the business of the "customer". But training sure makes a difference. In my opinion this is as much a responsibility of the reseller as it is the "customer's".

Originally posted by EdwinvdBorg
In case you are talking about Triton 2.2 and Triton 3.1 then it becomes a totally different ball game.

If I were in that situation I would definitely move away from BAAN and not go to a higher version of BAAN.
My best bet in this case is to wait for Axapta 4.0 from Microsoft Business Solutions that will be released early next year.
However, there are so many factors involved in selecting a new ERP platform so it all depends on the company what they need.

The issues that are troubling the Triton (2.2 and 3.1) customers now will be the same for the BAAN IV customers in the future.
Unless SSA has been able to really turn around BAAN and to make it a competitive solution again.

Regards,

Edwin


**The opinion expressed in the quote above has strictly been my personal opnion and not the one of my current employer, TriNET (until September 5th, 2003).

I did not mean to say that existing Triton customers have to move away from BAAN in all circumstances.
This all depends on the company's needs and IT strategy.

I am sure that at the 2003 BWU Fall Workshop in Charlotte, NC we will be able to experience a robust and great new product from BAAN, code name Gemini. Together with a new management BAAN is hopefully on the way back.
This will be good for everybody.

Regards,

Edwin**

I am sure that at the 2003 BWU Fall Workshop in Charlotte, NC we will be able to experience a robust and great new product from BAAN, code name Gemini Sorry to sound negative, but I would first like to see and experience it before deciding whether it is robust and great. In my opinion, Triton 2.2, 3.1 and BaanIV are robust. What I've seen (and felt) of BaanV Verdi, Corelli and Reger, I missed the ease and simpleness needed for a robust but flexible system.

Let me explain this last bit with a real pre-sales story. How can you call a version (BaanV in this case) robust when, during a pre-sales case-study, you need all three versions of BaanV to prove to the (would-be) customer that the software works? Some things worked in Verdi, the next portion of the case-study had to be done on Reger, and then again a portion on Corelli, with the last part of the presentation again in Verdi! It will be no suprise that the customer walked away and bought SAP!

Please note: I am an absolute Baan fan, especially of the architecture, since it is my belief (and experience) that you can do with it whatever you want. But that release strategy... and the sales people selling what we call: compiled air... Therefore, give me Gemini for a demo period of sixty days, and then I'll tell you whether it is robust and great!

apart from the changes in architecture, are there any major fucntionality differences in Baan V as compared to Baan IV ? also apart from the financial troubles of the parent company, what could be some of the other reasons for majority of the users not choosing to upgrade to Baan V ?

can anyone provide information about the end support dates for the various versions like

Triton 2
Triton 3
Baan IV a
Baan IV b
Baan IVc4
iBaan ERP ( Baan V )

thanks in advance

aditya

The last info I have, which used to be available on the Baan Support page , is:-

Triton 2 no support from 01.01.2002
Triton 3.0a no support from 01.01.2002
Triton 3.0b no support from 01.01.2003
Triton 3.1a1 presently restricted support, no supp from 01.01.2004
Triton 3.1b7 std support to end of 2003. restricted through 2004, none thereafter
Baan IVa presently restricted support, no support from 01.01.2004
Baan IVb std support to end of 2003. restricted through 2004, none thereafter
Baan IVc std support to end 2008, restricted through 2009, noe thereafter.
Baan V (all versions) support dates yet to be defined.


That being said the std support contracts allow you to continue your support after the dates stated, but you face a 25% increase per annum, to help you make up your mind to upgrade.

Cannot speak on functional changes but do know that some functionality is "lost" when moving from IV to V

Other reasons would be Baan IV is more stable assuming you are at SP10 or higher.

Cost of moving to V will be "wasted" if in 1/2 years you then go to Gemini.

SSA Global have said they will write migration programs to go from IV to Gemini and will not release Gemini until it meets their quality standards. They also know , as others have pointed out, that if either the migration or the product Gemini is not
up to standard they can write off a large amount of their investment in Baan as people vote with their feet

70% of Baan users are on IV

With regard to end of support dates you should refer to what has already been posted on this board and what is reported by SSA that they will continue to support ALL versions. It may cost you more in support though.

If you are worried go back to your SSA representative and ask him for it in writing

hi frank


thanks for your valuable inputs . Do you have any clue as to what exactly is the fucntionality which is lost in upgrading from baan IV to V ?

aditya

The differences are not critical but Baan Process is lost!
So if you use that module – do not upgrade.

Can anyone pls clarify the following :

1. What is the difference between ManMan & ManMan/X (Unix versoin). Is there a change in platform? How different are these two versions from say TRITON 2.2?

2. Does anyone use ManMan on Digial Equipment Servers? Are these resources available?

3. If resources on ManMan with experience on Digital available? Where will they be available ex: Monster.com etc.

thanks in advance

aditya

Hi adityapd,

the difference between ManMan & ManMan/X is not only the plattform. What i know ist that there will be also some differnces in the functionality.
The ManMan/X Version is near by Trition 2.2, but what ManMan/X Version did you run ???

We have migrate some ManMan/X Customers to BAAN IV without any Problems

Kind Regards

Tinka

My understanding/recollection is that there is virtually no similarity between Manman and Manman/x except the name. The only commonality is that they we both sold by the ASK who were taken over by CA in mid 1994 (from memory a swift and hostile t/o) for the purpose of getting Manman/x

Manman is/was a very good MRPII manufacturing package that ran on both DEC and HP platforms with their proprietry OS's, before the days of unix popularity. I think it was originally written for HP then ported to DEC/vms. By the early 1990's it was fairly old and it certainly had no where near the functionality that Baan/Triton has.

My understanding is that ASK made arrangements to market Triton (baan) as Manman/x to use the very good reputation that Manman had.

When CA got ASK, Baan attempted to stop CA marketing the Baan software by not agreeing to transfer the license arrangements for marketing. Eventually CA obtained the right to continue to market the software they had (triton 2/3?) but not any new releases. (baanIV etc)

CA later changed the name of Manman/x to MK.

Terry

thanks Terry and Tinka

any idea as to what exactly are the functionality differences between Manman/x and Triton 2.2 ?

Are there any users who run manman on Digital equipment servers yet ?

aditya

Hi aditya,

the difference between ManMan/X and Triton 2.2 a very small. I worked in the oast with both Software products, and there are no difference.

Kind Regards

Tinka

Hi Tinka

I am sure SSA Global will be very interested in your migration methods in the near future !

Are you able to say what version of Baan you migrated to ?

Hi Frank,

we are migrated one ManMan/X Version 3.1 to BAAN IV c 4 and a MK Manufacturing Version also to BAAN IV c4.

The Difference between the ManMan Version and BAAN IV c 4 is very small so that the migration is done in complette 60 Day´s

Kind Regards

Tinka

hi tinka

how many user seats did you migrate for that particular customer from Manman/x to Baan IVc4 60 days ?

aditya

Hi aditya,

15 named User we did it in 60 Day´s

Tinka

what's your estimation in terms of time required for migrating a user with around 150 to 200 seats ?

aditya

Hi aditya,

we are in a offering by a customer with 160 named User. This customer had a lot of customizing in ManMan/X and no Finance.

We make a offering for 230 day´s for the migration to BAAN IV c 4.

Kind Regards

Tinka

“Based on SSA Global’s continued commitment to not sunset products, all of the Baan products are and will continue to be supported. We want customers for life and we will support Baan solutions as long as any single customer needs support and is willing to invest in support,” said Cory A. Eaves, vice president of solutions management and research at SSA Global.

Baan Product Roadmap (http://www.ssaglobal.com/documents/BaanIV.doc)

Juergen

That's perfect news!!! Thanks for sharing it, Juergen.

Well support is improving and I will be sure to remind them of these words the next time they respond with "That is fixed in the next release". Not service pack or patch, but the next release.

Mark

For those interested in subject of migrations of MK and ManMan customers to Baan, you may want to check this event taking place in Chicago in May 2004.

http://www.globalusergroup.org/

They have few sessions where they discuss the migration path to Baan.

- Bader